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We have a, the National Air Intelligence Center has an alumni group and we meet annually and

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some of them still show up.

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George Tolls was telling me about that.

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He sent me some of the things that he had.

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George is just a real great guy, you know.

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He was in the very early business.

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He may well have been there before I arrived.

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I just remember him and we have in comparison dates recently to pull a point where I remember

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which one of us might have been the first to get there.

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I was the chief of the gun unit in the Armament Laboratory in the Engineering Division and

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the tech intelligence people brought over the gun from the German jet ME-262 and wanted

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it evaluated in that it was a very unique design and was extraordinarily lethal in World

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War II at the end of the war.

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I conducted some tests and furnished them the results.

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Then I had a very good friend whose name is mentioned in your work, Miles E. Goal.

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Well that's very interesting because I have tried for years to find out anything I could

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on him.

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He may well have actually started at McCook Field and then moved on to Wright Field and

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he's a real pioneer there in the Armament and then towards the end of the war Colonel

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and later General Putt got a team together and took him to Europe to pick up the high

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tech information that they could find in the way of material and documents and visiting

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the various institutes as the United States and other Allied forces took over.

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Then when Goal came back rather than going to his old engineering assignment he stayed

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with tech intelligence and became chief and deputy chief as Fortune's had it back and

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forth of the analysis division.

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He being a real old friend when my job to come back as an engineer in the engineering

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armament and that was wiped out, the job was wiped out, he was kind enough to hire me and

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immediately put me on the staff under his wing you might say with loading.

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I was sharing the tech assistance office with loading.

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Oh so you knew Alfred very well then?

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Very well.

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Yeah I know the loading family and they have been trying to put together a family history

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dealing with specifically around Alfred and Alfred I guess was kind of quiet with the

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family wouldn't really tell too much of what was going on.

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Well none of us did we were so sworn to secrecy in those days that we didn't share with our

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families that was pretty common among the people involved in tech intelligence.

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I would like to know a little about you how you entered the service and where you went

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to school and things like that if you could tell me.

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University of Washington 41 mechanical engineer went into the military got a graduation on

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Saturday military active duty on Monday and I went with a coast artillery on the west coast

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in the June of 41 and an earlier time and I don't remember when it really was it might

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have been in the junior year or possibly senior year that Wright Field sent a recruiting team

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around and then gave us a story about Wright Field and asked for those that might be interested

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and I guess I signed up as a matter of interest and I say I guess because I honestly have

45
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no recollection well when I was on duty with the coast artillery a message came in from

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Wright Field and asked if I would consider a transfer to the Army Air Corps engineering

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at Wright Field.

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My regimental commander was a reserve officer and engineer and he said son you get you get

49
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nowhere at all in this army business artillery.

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He said you have an opportunity here to see some really great engineering in the air corps

51
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and prepare you for a later career.

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He said take your year there rather than here in the artillery.

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So I followed his advice and we accepted the offer and then I was immediately transferred

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to the air corps at Wright Field arriving in September late September I think the last

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few days of September of 1941.

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Went into the armament laboratory and that's a story in itself how I was chosen to go armament

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but when they asked a certain group who'd ever been up in an airplane and I was one

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of the few to raise my hand they said well you go to bombing so that's how I went to

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work bombing on the Norton bomb site.

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I was supposedly the first non-rated not having any wings non-rated reserve officer who was

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cleared for the innards of the Norton bomb site.

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I was working on a directed project on the bomb site but they would never let me get

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in inside of it look at the drawings or anything you know and I said I can't do what you're

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asking me to do unless I can see what's inside.

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Well it finally came through I got it clear.

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I don't think things have changed much have they?

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They sort of do that over and over again.

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Something led to another I ended up in the B-29 program went with that on the remote

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crits remote fire control system.

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I checked out the first airplanes accepted by the Air Force at all of the B-29 factories

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now is at Omaha and Marietta, Georgia and there's another one in there that just comes

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in mind at the moment.

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But after the B-29s and I went into the gun unit with Chief of that and got out of military

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I believe in May of 46 came back in September in tech intelligence as a civilian.

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Back in September of 47 or 46?

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46.

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Let me ask you a question about when you were out on the west coast and that were you involved

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with the Battle of Los Angeles?

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I was in the Fort Lewis area we were the only mobile anti-aircraft outfit on Fort Lewis

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and we ran around up to Seattle and so forth but we never even went over to Bremerton a

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friend of mine who was an engineer at Bremerton at the time said we had no defense at Bremerton

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I said oh yeah you did.

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We would have come up with a drop of a hat we were a fully mobile you know and had all

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our well we didn't have all our guns but we had quite a few and had our fire control

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and so forth.

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A lot of historians have always wondered about that big battle that went on right over Los

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Angeles.

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Well I am somewhat familiar with it and that one of my friends who was down there related

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to the battle.

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Out of my class we were dispersed to a number of places Portland and LA area and some of

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them eventually went to the Philippines and others of them went to Alaska.

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So I feel very fortunate that I didn't join those because some of them we never heard of

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again others had some very very tough times.

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But I remember one fantastic story out of San Francisco where I was told that they had

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a barrage balloon broke loose from its holding and danced into town with its line down on

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to get onto the street and it would rise and fall again in the morning.

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So some guy ran out and tied the rope to the front of his car and then went in to call

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the air defense people to tell them that he had one of their balloons and they said well

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you know hold on to it we'll come and get it.

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Well in the meantime the sun came up and as you all know the balloon expanded and lifted

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the car up and then the car went dancing down the street and then one of my buddies was

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in on that and he told me that story I always enjoyed.

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Funny.

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But I flew B-17s into Seattle with the air defense balloons up you know for your career

105
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acquainted with the old Seattle Boeing airfield down in the gully along the Duwamish and we

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flew in between the balloons you know and then streaked in on the on the runways there.

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There was no Seattle international as CTAC as they know it now and then later as I mentioned

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I first air plane out of Everett as well the first B-29 out of not the Everett plant

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the the Rinton plant first one out of the new Rinton plant.

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It was quite a you know quite an experience being on those acceptance teams.

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Speaking of B-29s there was a man in the Air Force named Captain Edward Ruppelt.

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Well I know Ruppelt well yeah.

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He knew him well and he was involved I guess in the B-29.

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Yeah he went to India and then stayed with him and you know you you've got that in your

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history on the Tinian and all.

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And I was slated to join the outfit in the Marianas as the as the wing Air Force Armament

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Officer or something like that and my answer to my orders were canceled by the engineering

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people that said I was too vital to their program.

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They wouldn't let me go.

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Well one of the things that I've always been curious about Captain Ruppelt was that he

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was very highly decorated for a bombardier but we have no information on what he did

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to gain so much commendation.

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Well usually the bombardier and I was as you as I mentioned I was acquainted with bombing

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and installed bomb sites on a number of various new airplanes and I did some test drops but

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I never went into combat but I had a lot of friends in combat and you really you you got

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your reward your decorations on the achievement of the mission as well as on the performance

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of the individual.

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Now for instance if the first bombing mission out of India was down into into China it was

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not on on to Japan.

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First missions went down to Rangoon.

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You're scraping my memory that's pretty lame you know after all these years but first missions

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went to Rangoon and they didn't do too well and nonetheless there was some engagements

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for Jab Zeroes.

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There were airplanes shot down and so forth so easily some air medals would be awarded.

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Now later of course when the missions ran out of Japan and the low level in particular

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where they really dropped tons of incendiaries at very low altitudes and those people again

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were decorated because of their bombing achievement.

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Sometimes they would also have a engagement like a head-on engagement with fighters that

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were dedicated to crashing the B-29's head-on on a suicide and the bombardier would take

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over the forward firepower and he could shoot down an airplane or two.

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Consequently you get decorated.

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I have no idea what I root out citations were I'm just telling you that's some of the way

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he seemed to be a pretty quiet fellow.

144
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What's quiet fellow?

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Well from what I understand he didn't talk about himself much but I guess he was an

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extremely dedicated worker.

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When he was in the organization I certainly encountered him in meetings and what not he's

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on one side of the aisle I'm on the other.

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I don't remember him as a fireball.

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We also had some rather well frankly drunken parties.

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I don't remember him in them at all.

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The whole gang raises all kinds of cane and people do things that they wouldn't do normally

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and what not but I do not remember root out in any one of those joining in or making a

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scene or anything you know.

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Some of the younger guys just didn't choose to join in on that kind of thing.

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The old World War II types were more likely to be doing that.

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Unfortunate Christmas party that were in the empty cases and bottles were counted by the

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base police and we were asked to leave out of building 11.

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The analysis then went over to area A alongside of the headquarters of the technical service

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command or material command and we went into a building there I think it was something

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like 867T or something like that.

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But it was one of the logistics buildings and we got the second floor of it and that

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was before we moved to before the whole thing moved to the huts fronted by 263 and the role

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of well they were actually a special kind of building for storage and handling issue

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of documents books like technical manuals.

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Remember Kios?

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Sure.

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Km's and that sort of thing.

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Sure.

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That was the operation that was in there.

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The building was vacated and we got it and it had like the head house of concrete block

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and then like eight transverse wings maybe seven and a central hall going down the whole

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thing.

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So these weren't necessarily quats at that step?

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No, no.

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Not at all.

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It's just a way called euphemism or expression.

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They were not quats at that.

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And you know we always had a real big problem with our driving business.

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When we were over in that area B party that I spoke of one of the people that's in your

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car.

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Yeah, but I've never seen a photo of him or know anything about him at all.

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A rugged looking individual.

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So John answered to that was oh I always leave my car keys on the desk and everybody uses

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a car any time they want.

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I didn't drive through any gate you know.

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Where's your proof who was driving it?

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He didn't deny it was his car but he didn't get stuck with it.

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We just all added to the color of our escapade.

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I remember another time one of the guys of all things he hit the guard house on the way

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out.

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Oh no.

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And you'd be an ex-military you know that don't go over very good.

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No, not the guard house proper, no.

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Well I was there from the time I reported in September 46th till I retired on June 30th

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1973.

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At the time I retired I was GS-15.

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My military career ended at the end of the Korean Recall in 53 when I went out on active

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duty reserve, active reserve status.

200
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But they did some kind of a program at that time to re-establish your reserve standing

201
00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:43,760
and I chose to resign because it had cost me considerably for my recall.

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I was a 14 when I was recalled and went back to my World War II grade of major.

203
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General Garland wanted me to stay on as he did some other people.

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He not promised me but he pretty much assured me that I could get assistant air out of Shade

205
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Paris which was a real attractive idea.

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But I had a family then, girls in school, my wife and I decided that we would go civilian

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from there on.

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So you know things could have been a lot different.

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What was General Garland like?

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Garland was just a fine general officer.

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He was a classic man, had bearing and class, looked like a general, talked like a general.

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He was certainly a man whose intelligence was admired.

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00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,480
I never heard a bad word about Garland.

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He was close friends with Colonel Don, wasn't he?

215
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That I could not tell you.

216
00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,000
I have no recollection of it.

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I have a really terrible, terrible Xerox photograph of him and Colonel Don together.

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00:19:54,160 --> 00:20:03,840
They very well might have been in the same picture at various times when we had get-togethers

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and I'd have to look at the, I don't have any of the military stuff at the desk I'm

220
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at now.

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I have a biography of Don and of Garland and it might indicate where there may or may not

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have been overlap.

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00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:27,880
But Don went on to be a real big time intelligence operator in Vietnam.

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Oh he did?

225
00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:29,880
Yes.

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00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:31,880
Oh, well I didn't know that.

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00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:32,880
Hell.

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I remember talking to him at a reunion we had in Dayton, down at the convention center.

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I could give you the year and Don came to it.

230
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:58,480
I had been in Vietnam just before I got out and consequently we shared some Vietnam business.

231
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:03,880
I was chairman of the Joint Services Battle Damage Assessment in Vietnam.

232
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:07,280
Oh, you went in and checked everything out then, huh?

233
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:08,280
Hell.

234
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:09,280
Well I was thinking-

235
00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:13,200
Well, Graham, I did not get, well I did get shot at.

236
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:20,920
At least we understood our airplane was under fire one time but I did not go out in the

237
00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:23,280
jungle or anything like that.

238
00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:30,080
I was the type that was in the hotel on the outside of the gate of Ton Sinout and watched

239
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,520
the helicopters come in, nose to tail.

240
00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,160
I'll never forget that, you know.

241
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:42,800
I want you to know that when I heard you were coming in June, the last of June, Rosengarten,

242
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,680
I talked to him about it and I talked to Tolles about it.

243
00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:54,120
I had been told by Rob Young that you were coming and he said to make contact on your

244
00:21:54,120 --> 00:21:58,760
arrival through them, which I talked to them.

245
00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:02,280
I went down last yesterday, I think it was a day before.

246
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:10,880
It's been almost all day digging into a huge box of summaries of various time histories

247
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,600
that were written and notes and whatnot.

248
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,840
The Red Honaker was a real character.

249
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:25,000
He started at Wright Field in high school years working as a high school student with

250
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:32,640
part-time on the base and used to fly and more or less maintained the galley on airplanes

251
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:38,120
so equipped and poured coffee and all that kind of stuff made sandwiches.

252
00:22:38,120 --> 00:22:47,880
Eventually he took a job full-time and then he became Mr. You Are, unsatisfactory reports

253
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,000
from the field in maintenance.

254
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:55,000
He became very, very well-known.

255
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,120
He was a very colorful figure.

256
00:22:58,120 --> 00:23:06,480
Red described himself as five foot seventeen and an eighth of a ton.

257
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,000
I think you can convert that.

258
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:15,320
He loved to tell people that when they asked him, I got red, how big are you?

259
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,040
And they would tell him that right away.

260
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:26,280
He was an outstanding volleyball player, state championship team type of thing.

261
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:34,640
And I played volleyball with him one time on a picnic and he unwound that probably ten

262
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:41,480
foot reach he had with a full swing, spiked the ball and knocked the colonel flat on his

263
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,480
butt, straighten his face.

264
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:49,920
I said, red, you know, if you had done that to me, I said my glasses would have been in

265
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:51,420
the inside of my head.

266
00:23:51,420 --> 00:23:54,360
Yeah, there's no fun game.

267
00:23:54,360 --> 00:23:57,360
He says that's the way you play the game.

268
00:23:57,360 --> 00:23:59,600
But that was red for you.

269
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:09,480
He was a real character, became mayor of Fairborn, was a very significant figure in our document

270
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:16,480
stories and retrieval, our machine language translation programs before he retired.

271
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:18,480
Oh, excellent career.

272
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,480
Yeah, in what?

273
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:22,480
What could you tell me about Colonel DeArmond?

274
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:26,480
I talked with his son about a year and a half ago.

275
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,480
Want to know his nickname?

276
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:29,480
Sure.

277
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,480
I don't think he'd like it.

278
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,480
Well, Colonel DeArmond is no longer with us.

279
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:36,480
I know that.

280
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:41,480
But you know, they say they're up there looking down and watching and listening here and everything

281
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:42,480
goes out.

282
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:48,480
Well, this may seem very strange to you, but as an historian, his son sent me all of his

283
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,480
dad's private papers from the service.

284
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:52,480
Fantastic.

285
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:53,480
I've just seen those.

286
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:54,480
And I made copies.

287
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,480
I've got complete copies of everything that his son could find.

288
00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:58,480
My God.

289
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,480
And he was a very meticulous man.

290
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,480
Everything that he filed was in chronological order.

291
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:05,480
Oh, my.

292
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:06,480
I remember that day.

293
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:08,480
It was in January.

294
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:12,480
It was cold outside and it was late at night.

295
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:16,480
And I had just gotten the box from Bruce.

296
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:21,480
And as I was going through those, the funniest feeling came over me.

297
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:27,480
I could swear that Colonel DeArmond was standing next to me with his hand on my shoulder.

298
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,480
I mean, it's really strange what historians go through.

299
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:31,480
Yeah.

300
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:32,480
And that.

301
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:41,480
He was one of the true pioneers rooted in the basic tech intelligence exploitation of

302
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:42,480
World War II.

303
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:47,480
And there are not many that were, you know, that stayed with it.

304
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:55,480
And we got a number of them when I came in and for all of 46, I should say there were

305
00:25:55,480 --> 00:26:01,480
some of them still left, but they were fast departing and we never saw most of them.

306
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:03,480
Most of them again.

307
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:09,480
A few of them did hang in there for a while.

308
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:16,480
Colonel O'Mara was a really also one of the pioneers.

309
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:26,480
He apparently was sponsored by the Joint U.S. British Intelligence Objectives Subcommittee,

310
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:30,480
BIOS, JIOS and so forth.

311
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,480
You know, I'd have to look.

312
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:38,480
I'm getting just grasping out of memory here, but he was a true pioneer in it.

313
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:46,480
And John brought back a good segment of the so-called Tainamunda files.

314
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:54,480
And we had those in T2 occupying something like six forward or cabinets.

315
00:26:54,480 --> 00:27:03,480
My experience with loading was that he was decidedly a different sort of person.

316
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:17,480
He was very animated, very emotional, excitable about technical performance, things of, you

317
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:21,480
know, conceptual things.

318
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:30,480
And so things like flying saucers and so forth and the exotic propulsion systems were things

319
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:35,480
that he would just, you know, get very excited about.

320
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:40,480
Well, he was really deep into the low aspect ratio stuff.

321
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:41,480
Yeah, right.

322
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,480
With the Hortons and from what I understand.

323
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:52,480
Lippisch and the Horton brothers were some of his favorite German areas that he wanted to look into.

324
00:27:52,480 --> 00:28:01,480
Yeah, from what I understand from the family that Dr. Lippisch would come about every Sunday to have dinner with him.

325
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:02,480
My goodness.

326
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:03,480
At the home.

327
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:05,480
I never would have thought such a thing happened.

328
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:06,480
Oh, really?

329
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:07,480
Really?

330
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:08,480
Why's that?

331
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:09,480
Surprises me.

332
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:10,480
Oh, really?

333
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:11,480
Could you tell me why?

334
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:13,480
Well, I never heard of it.

335
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:22,480
Yeah, I guess he was close friends with Goddard and even went to Roswell to consult with Goddard on.

336
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,480
Yeah, they filled the picture with him out there.

337
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:36,480
The only thing that Al ever mentioned to me directly about Rocketry was his project activity at right field on the Jado Bottle.

338
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:37,480
Uh-huh.

339
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,480
He never went into that asist to take off.

340
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:44,480
He never went in, you know, that I remember that made any impression on me.

341
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:49,480
Never went into working with Goddard or anything of the sort.

342
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:51,480
I'm not saying he did or he didn't.

343
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,480
All I'm saying is I don't remember anything of the sort.

344
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:59,480
Oh, you forgot to tell me what Colonel DeArmond's nickname was.

345
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:06,480
Well, it was, it was, amongst some, he was known as Moose.

346
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,480
Yeah, he was a big guy, you know.

347
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:10,480
Oh, yeah.

348
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:12,480
Real big red hair.

349
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:17,480
And sort of hulking his general carriage and whatnot.

350
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:28,480
It wasn't of my appointment, but I remember when it was mentioned Moose that we all knew who we were talking about.

351
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:32,480
Did the whole group there have nicknames for each other?

352
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:36,480
Well, uh, not really.

353
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,480
No, I didn't hear too many.

354
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:47,480
I know that Mrs. McCoy told us that Colonel McCoy was known as Mr. Perpeller.

355
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,480
He came out of the prop lab.

356
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:51,480
Right.

357
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:57,480
Now I have some of the very early recognition of McCoy.

358
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:13,480
I've got a publication identifying many of the people going to the engineering school in like 1939.

359
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:18,480
And McCoy's picture is in there as one of the...

360
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:19,480
Oh, really?

361
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:20,480
Yeah.

362
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,480
Oh, I was wondering if I could give a copy of that.

363
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:25,480
Oh, I can go send you one of those.

364
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:26,480
Yeah.

365
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:27,480
I appreciate it.

366
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:28,480
Thank you very much.

367
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:29,480
Okay.

368
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:39,480
The Hanukkah history, and as I say, I spend all day and I can't lay my hands on what I remember that I got somewhere.

369
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:50,480
But if I'm not at all an orderly person like you said the Armand was, things filed in chronological order.

370
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:57,480
My files are in various Manila envelopes and there's a lot of...

371
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:03,480
Whenever I start digging into them, I find things in one envelope that I should be in another one, you know.

372
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:12,480
And I found several things when I was working over a weekend that I straightened out a bit from.

373
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:19,480
And it did me some good to do it, but I'm still looking for the Hanukkah history.

374
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:30,480
I'm telling you, Darnedis names in his command, I guess, has a little bit of historical recollection.

375
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:38,480
And then they had, well, anyhow, he's filed another one, phonetically, Anus.

376
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:39,480
And...

377
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,480
Oh, yeah.

378
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:48,480
Anus's predecessor was Dumb.

379
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,480
Now that's funny.

380
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,480
E-U-M-M.

381
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:57,480
You and Miles used to carpool together.

382
00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:58,480
Oh, yeah.

383
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,480
Yeah, see, I knew Miles from like 1941.

384
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:12,480
And when I came back, when he gave me the job in tech intelligence, my wife and I arrived back from the west coast.

385
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:20,480
And things we tried to find a house and a car and so forth were very, very difficult.

386
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:27,480
And Miles found me a house within a full, roughly two blocks of where he lived.

387
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:33,480
And so we moved in there, and then he was a good friend of a Cadillac dealer.

388
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:37,480
And so I got a car through him.

389
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:44,480
Well, I think all you guys must be big car people because Alfred Loading always liked to drive the big cars, the big Buicks.

390
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:46,480
Well, right, right.

391
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:52,480
Actually, the car I got at that time was a Buick Roadmaster.

392
00:32:52,480 --> 00:33:00,480
An individual in town, a businessman, had ordered his Cadillac, and of course it couldn't be delivered.

393
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:06,480
But they managed to give him a new Buick Roadmaster to hold him over till his Cadillac arrived.

394
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,480
When the Cadillac arrived, I got the Buick Roadmaster.

395
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,480
Boy, that was one of the biggest cars ever built, you know.

396
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,480
Huge automobile.

397
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:16,480
Big dinosaur today.

398
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:17,480
Yeah, it sure was.

399
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,480
And to this day, I still have dinosaurs.

400
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:27,480
I just got rid of a Lincoln, I have a Cadillac now, and a big sedan, the last of the big Fleetwood Brom.

401
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:28,480
Oh, wow.

402
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,480
I use it to pull my boat.

403
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:34,480
Oh, you like to mess around in the lake.

404
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:40,480
I have a 24 foot cruiser down on Lake Cumberland in Kentucky.

405
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:42,480
Oh, beautiful country down there.

406
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:43,480
Oh, gorgeous.

407
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:45,480
Yeah, I wish I was there today.

408
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:46,480
You're lucky you caught me.

409
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,480
I've been trying to encourage my wife.

410
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:57,480
We're having a break in the hot weather, and we're right now having real nice low 80s, low humidity, ideal weather.

411
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:04,480
Well, I live here in the desert southwest, and we get very little rain, but for the last two days, that's all it's been wanting to do.

412
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:09,480
So it's kind of, I'm not quite used to all this moisture.

413
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:14,480
Let's see, I got a few more names I'd like to ask you about.

414
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:18,480
How about Colonel Seashore?

415
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:33,480
But Seashore, again, one of the crew pioneers had been with McCoy in England, and so there was a tie in there.

416
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:43,480
And he was considered to be a collection type, although at one point he was chief of the Analysis Division before Goal and Klingerman.

417
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:45,480
Well, I wanted to ask you about that.

418
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,480
I know nothing at all about it. That was before my time.

419
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:49,480
Well, actually...

420
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,480
Commander, I was chief of analysis when I arrived.

421
00:34:52,480 --> 00:35:05,480
From what I understand, and from what I'm seeing on the organizational charts, Colonel McCoy held the position as chief of analysis real early in 1946 after he returned.

422
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:07,480
Yeah, he and Seashore both did.

423
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,480
Yeah, and then Miles took over.

424
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:11,480
Yeah.

425
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:18,480
And that, but then just very shortly thereafter, Colonel Klingerman stepped in.

426
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:19,480
Yeah.

427
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:24,480
And just from a historic point, was this a demotion for Miles?

428
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:34,480
No, what had happened was that Miles was a right-hand type of guy to put out of old engineering division.

429
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,480
He had no friends out of engineering.

430
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:44,480
And as I told you earlier, Miles went over to Germany with Putt, and on the Putt team.

431
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:45,480
Right.

432
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:57,480
All right, when he comes back, Putt, of course, was delighted that he chose to stay in tech intelligence rather than go back to his armament job, armament engineering.

433
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:04,480
So Putt rewarded him with his chief of analysis.

434
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:05,480
Okay.

435
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:06,480
Okay.

436
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:12,480
Putt was not too keen on those collection guys.

437
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:21,480
Seashore, McCoy, McCoy, of course, was an engineer that had been in engineering school, may have actually been in with Putt.

438
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:28,480
But Putt certainly was not too keen on Seashore, and he wasn't on Watson.

439
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:29,480
But why is that?

440
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:30,480
Don't know.

441
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:31,480
Oh.

442
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:50,480
But I do know that, and this is a fact that very few people know, that Watson was actually let out of tech intelligence and went to Washington in his first tour as chief of the collection division.

443
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:54,480
A very few of Watson's histories pointed that out.

444
00:36:54,480 --> 00:37:05,480
And I stuck it in in the time of Ashcroft, putting what was probably the best of the orderly histories, you know.

445
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:13,480
And I figured out what Watson's earlier years were, and I had some reference dates and whatnot.

446
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:22,480
And I know when Watson left and went to Washington, and then of course we had him coming back as chief of attic.

447
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:26,480
And that's in the picture that I'm going to be sending you.

448
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:27,480
Okay.

449
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:34,480
But it does not at all recognize his earlier tour as chief of a collection.

450
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:42,480
You know, he came over from Lestee when they loaded the carrier and brought all this stuff to Seymour.

451
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:50,480
And just what went on those days are not well documented, nobody much around to relate him.

452
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:55,480
Did you, by any chance, from Bruce, did you get a history of Seymour?

453
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:57,480
No, I didn't.

454
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,480
No, I can call him and ask him.

455
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:01,480
Yeah.

456
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:03,480
Well, he gave me a copy of it.

457
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,480
You say, not too dynamic in the office.

458
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:08,480
Neither was Klingerman.

459
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:13,480
Neither of them really had their heart in tech intelligence.

460
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:23,480
Klingerman was noted to be a typical fighter pilot at the constant twitch of looking over his shoulders.

461
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:29,480
And, you know, that's one of the only things I can remember about him.

462
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:36,480
Now, he has signed my travel orders and I sat in and talked to him.

463
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,480
He was in goal, shared the office.

464
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:46,480
And I was in that office quite a bit being seen, you know, traveling with goal on right pool.

465
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:49,480
We'd get together before we leave, you know.

466
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:54,480
And I often had to sit and wait for him to finish up.

467
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,480
Was Colonel Hymstreet always involved in the big parties?

468
00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:59,480
I can't remember that.

469
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:01,480
Honestly, I'm not trying to avoid it.

470
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:03,480
No, I understand.

471
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:07,480
No, I don't remember Andy partying.

472
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:11,480
I have another mystery name here that I don't know very much about.

473
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,480
And that's Colonel Hossman.

474
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:16,480
Oh, Gordon.

475
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,480
Gordon Hossman, nicknamed Bubblehead.

476
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,480
Bubblehead.

477
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:28,480
None of the electronics people had any respect for him whatsoever.

478
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,480
And he was a alcoholic.

479
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:38,480
Unfortunately, the poor man died down in Florida literally in the gutter.

480
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:41,480
Fell off the curb, you know.

481
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:48,480
I was at a party one night where he fell all the way down the stairs, you know, just terrible.

482
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:54,480
And when he took over electronics and the people said,

483
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:59,480
we're going to the AIWE meeting, he said, what's that?

484
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:08,480
You know, he had no background in electronic technical background at all.

485
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:12,480
Did you ever meet a Dr. Charles Carroll?

486
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:16,480
No, no, that name I did not.

487
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:22,480
I don't remember if I ever did encounter him, but I saw the name in the write-up

488
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:26,480
and Mike asked me about him and I don't remember him at all.

489
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:28,480
How about Major Boggs?

490
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,480
Boggs is up in Washington.

491
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:35,480
I have a very close friend that knows Boggs very well.

492
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:40,480
I just, I think I went to lunch with Boggs when I went up.

493
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:50,480
I was on the anti-aircraft working group in FNYN and I went up almost weekly to,

494
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:54,480
well, let's see, bi-weekly or something like that,

495
00:40:54,480 --> 00:41:00,480
but I frequently went up to sit in on the anti-aircraft intelligence working group.

496
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:06,480
We wrote the Air Force position for the national estimates and so forth.

497
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,480
And at that time I met Boggs.

498
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:20,480
As I did, Patton, Steve Posoni and Rosenschweig.

499
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:21,480
Rosenschweig?

500
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:22,480
Yeah.

501
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:23,480
Never heard of the name.

502
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:30,480
They, the Patton, Posoni and Rosenschweig were the three,

503
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:36,480
scientific advisors to the Deputy for Intelligence at CORE USEP.

504
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:41,480
Now that's interesting because I have searched for a long time on Dr. Posoni,

505
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:47,480
but it was just recently that I recovered some information on him.

506
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:51,480
And that's, well, I'll tell you, some of these guys you knew,

507
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:54,480
I don't know where they hide, but try to find them.

508
00:41:54,480 --> 00:42:01,480
Rosenschweig was a, if I remember right, and he has been guest at my home and what not,

509
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:05,480
I really liked him, we spent a lot of time together.

510
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:12,480
He was an OSS guy and had a really a terrific deep root in intelligence.

511
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:21,480
Dr. Patton was also a general in reserve and he used to have his general's uniform

512
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:25,480
hanging on his clothes rack alongside his desk.

513
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:29,480
And at the drop of the hat would go on active duty for the day, you know.

514
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:30,480
Oh, wow.

515
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:31,480
The Pentagon.

516
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:36,480
And he finally let go of the intelligence business, got a promotion to major general

517
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:41,480
and was head of the Air Force Reserve Program, if my memory serves me right.

518
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:47,480
He might have been a deputy, you know, to a regular, but I think he was the head of it.

519
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:48,480
And we had, we had.

520
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:50,480
Well, actually, believe it or not,

521
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,480
a lot of this stuff is not out there.

522
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:54,480
Is that right?

523
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:55,480
Oh, really?

524
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:56,480
Find anyhow.

525
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:57,480
Oh, gee.

526
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:05,480
I know a guy that, a real good friend of mine, also from the Pentagon at that time, and he lives here.

527
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:13,480
He unfortunately has had real bad luck with his health recently, heart and other problems,

528
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:18,480
and he is just now starting his recovery.

529
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:25,480
When he would choose to talk to you, I'll, I'll, I'll, sir, make both your name and Mike's name

530
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,480
and phone numbers available to him and he can help you, you know.

531
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:29,480
Well, I really appreciate that.

532
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:33,480
And when you next time you talk to him, please send our best wishes.

533
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:35,480
We still go to dinner together.

534
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:40,480
We just started going out again because his health has got to that point.

535
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:46,480
But his memory is, is not what it was six months ago, you know.

536
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:48,480
He took a terrible blow.

537
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:52,480
How, what was, what was Dr. Pocini like?

538
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:58,480
Oh, I don't remember him anywhere near as well as, uh, Rosenstragon Patton.

539
00:43:58,480 --> 00:43:59,480
Oh, okay.

540
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:04,480
And Pisoni, I just, you know, met him in the office as a matter of courtesy.

541
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,480
Did you ever meet a, uh, Colonel James Olive?

542
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:08,480
No, no, uh-huh.

543
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:09,480
I didn't come over well.

544
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:10,480
Oh, that's okay.

545
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:11,480
No, I do not.

546
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:14,480
I never heard of a Colonel Olive to my recollection.

547
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:16,480
How about Lawrence Trutner?

548
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:17,480
Oh, real well.

549
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:19,480
Well, he's a mystery man to me.

550
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:20,480
I don't know anything about him.

551
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:21,480
Uh-huh.

552
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:29,480
He was a civilian engineer and in that information I've plowed through over the weekend, I found

553
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:34,480
that Trutner had guided missile projects in early 46.

554
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:36,480
He was in tech intelligence.

555
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:43,480
And, you know, that time we were tracking the whole host of, uh, German, um, missiles

556
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:51,480
all the way from, uh, air to air, surface to air, surface to surface and all.

557
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:57,480
He was in the missile unit as a civilian engineer.

558
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:05,480
Did you guys ever figure out what the big ghost rockets were over in Scandinavia in 1946?

559
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:07,480
Not, not to my knowledge.

560
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:09,480
I don't know anything at all about it.

561
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:13,480
How about a general John Vaught or Voight, V-O-G-T?

562
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:14,480
No.

563
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:15,480
You didn't know him?

564
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:16,480
V is in Victor?

565
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:17,480
Yes.

566
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:18,480
O-T-T.

567
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:20,480
No, O. G is in George?

568
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:21,480
L. T. Vaught.

569
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:22,480
No, no, I don't know him.

570
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:23,480
You didn't know him, huh?

571
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:24,480
Nope.

572
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:25,480
Oh, okay.

573
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:33,480
I'm going to ask, uh, I'm marking all this down and I'm going to ask my colleague,

574
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:40,480
you know, that I say as soon as I feel he's up to it, I'll ask him what he knows about

575
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:48,480
the Washington Gang, because he was in Pentagon on more than one occasion and he, before his

576
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:50,480
illness, was a great historian.

577
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:57,480
Oh, he just, he can remember dates and people and the, and the events far better than I.

578
00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:00,480
How about a Colonel George Garrett?

579
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:01,480
Garrett.

580
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:02,480
Yeah.

581
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:03,480
G-A-R-R-E-E-T?

582
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:04,480
That's correct.

583
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:10,480
Well, we had a civilian George Garrett, no Colonel.

584
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:11,480
Huh.

585
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:15,480
Well, this guy was in the Pentagon, but from what I understand, he used to come to right

586
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:16,480
field.

587
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:17,480
Uh-huh.

588
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:19,480
I just thought maybe you had run into him.

589
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:24,480
No, George Garrett was a contractor dealing with us in early times.

590
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:28,480
Now, maybe he was a general and I didn't know it.

591
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:34,480
You know, and he was no longer on active duty.

592
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:46,480
Seems like the one I knew was with one of the contractors that did a lot of work with intelligence

593
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:51,480
and to my knowledge, still doing it into the 90s, you know.

594
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:52,480
Uh-huh.

595
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:54,480
Uh, but yeah, I had names real familiar.

596
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:55,480
Wait a minute.

597
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:58,480
The guy I knew was Barrett.

598
00:46:58,480 --> 00:46:59,480
Oh, Barrett?

599
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:01,480
Yeah, this one's Garrett.

600
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:02,480
Gee.

601
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:03,480
Yeah.

602
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:04,480
No, that's right.

603
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:05,480
I was just slipped there.

604
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:08,480
I was thinking of George Barrett and we got Garrett.

605
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:10,480
Again, I'll ask my friend.

606
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:14,480
To, uh, new White Vandenberg?

607
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:19,480
Oh, hey, I don't know, generals like Vandenberg, but I did brief him.

608
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:23,480
I was on an early T2 briefing team.

609
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:31,480
We put together what was called the first technical threat briefing and took it up to the Pentagon,

610
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:37,480
briefed the, uh, all secretaries and whatnot and also Vandenberg.

611
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:49,480
And then Vandenberg sent us to New York City to brief the, a meeting of the American manufacturers,

612
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:54,480
aircraft manufacturers, AAM, something like that.

613
00:47:54,480 --> 00:48:04,480
It was a formal organization of the top level management owners of the major American aircraft factories.

614
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:05,480
Oh, well that sounds interesting.

615
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:08,480
We went to New York to brief him.

616
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:14,480
We had the briefing all on, you know, the old press board, I believe.

617
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:26,480
They were three feet by four feet, standard briefing, uh, hard board with the graphics all done in, uh, you know, watercolors and whatnot.

618
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,480
And we salvaged it in the Chesapeake.

619
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:40,480
Uh, but we were in a T11 and had the bag, uh, a tailored bag that held, you know, like 30 of these things and that made quite a package.

620
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:44,480
And, and the Bombay door vibrated open and we salvaged it.

621
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:47,480
You can imagine the furor on that.

622
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:49,480
You knew Captain Gregory?

623
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:51,480
George, very good friend.

624
00:48:51,480 --> 00:49:00,480
In fact, George credits Marge, my wife Marge, me with having brought about his marriage to Donna.

625
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:04,480
Oh, little matchmaking going on there, huh?

626
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:08,480
Well, we had that house that Gold gave us, arranged for us.

627
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:13,480
And George and Donna had nowhere to go.

628
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:20,480
And they used to come there and make dinner.

629
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:29,480
Well, it was just a high comedy because Donna was a good country girl from, I don't know, Iowa, Indiana or somewhere.

630
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:34,480
And George was a highly excitable Greek from New York.

631
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:39,480
And, uh, it was just a comedy to watch him make dinner, you know.

632
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:43,480
He'd be cooking and George was sneaking in the spices.

633
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:52,480
But yes, I do know him well and George has deeded me his whole file on the UFO program.

634
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:54,480
And I have it in a box.

635
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,480
I have it on a legal deed.

636
00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:03,480
And I'm just talking to the curator out at the Air Force Museum.

637
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:12,480
And he is referring me to the head of the archives, what is it, uh, oh, heck, documents and something.

638
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:16,480
And we're going to meet sometime after the 16th of this month.

639
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:17,480
Well?

640
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:19,480
And he wants to review this file.

641
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:22,480
I would let you look at it, but I will not let you copy it.

642
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:24,480
That's an agreement with George.

643
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:25,480
Yeah, I'm...

644
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:28,480
See, he, uh, he was pursued.

645
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:32,480
And I know you know more about this than I.

646
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:35,480
By a whole flock of UFO people.

647
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:36,480
Oh, I know, they drive people...

648
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:37,480
And he...

649
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:38,480
They drive everybody nuts.

650
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:42,480
He absolutely refused to cooperate.

651
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:44,480
That's what he told me.

652
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:52,480
He said, I do not want in any way my stuff to be used by private people.

653
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:56,480
I feel that you would do better than I.

654
00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:58,480
He's older than I.

655
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:02,480
And I think his memory is sliding a little faster than mine.

656
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:12,480
And he said, I want to entrust this collection to you and dispose of it as you feel best in the interest of the Air Force or the National.

657
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:14,480
But I sure let you look at it.

658
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:22,480
Did you find anything on Albert Arnhem, A-R-N-H-Y-M?

659
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:23,480
No, I sure haven't.

660
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:28,480
He was McCoy's right-hand guy in the document after...

661
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:38,480
Before McCoy went up to the front office as head of T2, he was head of documents, chief of documents division.

662
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:39,480
Do you remember his first name?

663
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:40,480
Arnhem?

664
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:41,480
Yes.

665
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:42,480
Albert.

666
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:43,480
Oh, Albert.

667
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:45,480
Okay, I'm sorry, I didn't hear that.

668
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:47,480
No, I think, you know.

669
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:49,480
I'm sending here scribbly notes.

670
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:50,480
To German.

671
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:52,480
I'm scribbly notes as fast as I can.

672
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:56,480
While all of the... Not all again, I use that word recklessly.

673
00:51:56,480 --> 00:52:05,480
Well, many U.S. Air Corps colonels were being downgraded to light colonel so they could stay in.

674
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:10,480
McCoy arranged for Arnhem to get his Eagles.

675
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:14,480
A German by birth who'd never been in American forces.

676
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:15,480
Can you imagine that?

677
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:16,480
Wow.

678
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:27,480
So one day, he comes walking in, Arnhem does, with swagger stick and ribbons.

679
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:32,480
And promptly, before the day was out, the ribbons disappeared.

680
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:37,480
And I don't remember if he affected the swagger stick much longer either.

681
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:47,480
But I never heard... Well, Arnhem had a brilliant career then with exploiting the document's business, expanding on it.

682
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:54,480
He had a lot of promotional, natural promoter.

683
00:52:54,480 --> 00:53:02,480
He put on a theatrical production here with girls in short skirts carrying posters saying,

684
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:03,480
I'm a document.

685
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:09,480
I'm going over to get registered and stamped and whatnot.

686
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:13,480
And then she would go in between different people and desks.

687
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:20,480
And it got to be such a theatrical production that whole airplane loads of people were coming in from Washington.

688
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:23,480
That's the truth now.

689
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:24,480
That's no hearsay.

690
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:28,480
And this was under index and rainbow and that?

691
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:39,480
No, that was documents, division, the forerunner of what became the National Technical Library in Washington under Department of Commerce.

692
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:40,480
Oh, okay.

693
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:42,480
Well, I got my wires crossed there.

694
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:44,480
I've got the name, but I can't give it to you.

695
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:46,480
I don't remember.

696
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:55,480
So I never heard anything more of him after he went to Washington with the documents.

697
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:58,480
The whole division moved up there.

698
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:05,480
We kept a certain residual of it, the tech intelligence part that we wanted the panelists were interested in.

699
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:12,480
And then one time I was in on a briefing of going into brief LeMay.

700
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:26,480
And then going into LeMay's office there, we went through an outer office with his PR boss and there sits Colonel Arnhem, the same German.

701
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:28,480
How about that?

702
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:30,480
What a history.

703
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:32,480
Now I have no idea what became of it.

704
00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:37,480
Was General LeMay as crusty as the history books make him out to be?

705
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:41,480
Well, I had like three encounters with him.

706
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:48,480
One, he came to my desk in the armament laboratory before going over to take over the B-29.

707
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:52,480
He wanted to know something about the remote fire control systems.

708
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:57,480
And his brother-in-law, Captain Chandler, was in my group.

709
00:54:57,480 --> 00:55:04,480
Chandler arranged for LeMay to come to see me, unknown to me and unknown to the laboratory or anybody else.

710
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:10,480
Major General LeMay comes in and he's sitting there in my desk.

711
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:17,480
And he went down and got me down in the, I was working in the airplane at the time.

712
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:23,480
And if I remember what it was, it was a night widow, a night fighter.

713
00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:29,480
It was the North Twin Engine night fighter and I was working on that remote control system.

714
00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:35,480
And the secretary came down and got me and said, General LeMay is sitting at your desk.

715
00:55:35,480 --> 00:55:42,480
And I went to brief him at Omaha and I had a half hour briefing which everybody had approved.

716
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:48,480
And I was briefed by his or I was reviewed by his outer office staff.

717
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:52,480
I walked in, he asked me one question and I was back out in ten seconds.

718
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:56,480
And then I had that other encounter with him in the Pentagon.

719
00:55:56,480 --> 00:55:58,480
But I only met LeMay three times.

720
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:01,480
How about Izzy Goodwin from what I understand?

721
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:07,480
And Mike and I, when we were in Dayton, just happened to run across a little blurb in the right flyer.

722
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:13,480
On an Izzy Goodwin who was supposed to be Colonel McCoy's secretary.

723
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:17,480
Oh yeah, yeah.

724
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:19,480
We don't know anything about.

725
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:20,480
Yeah.

726
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:21,480
Yeah.

727
00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:22,480
They called her Izzy.

728
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:24,480
Izzy, very dark-haired.

729
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:26,480
Oh boy.

730
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:34,480
And if I remember right, she was either going with or married the guy that was...

731
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:40,480
...a quarter of an eye took over when I lived in World War II in Dayton, you know.

732
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:44,480
And this circle goes round and round.

733
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:51,480
Yeah, I remember her being a very striking dark-haired girl.

734
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:54,480
But I know somebody that know her, you know, real well.

735
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:56,480
No, Lucy Floyd.

736
00:56:56,480 --> 00:56:58,480
Yes, Lucy's a real good friend.

737
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:00,480
She lives close by.

738
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:06,480
She has just had hospital problems either just going in or going to go in.

739
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:09,480
She's had really serious medical problems.

740
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:12,480
Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. Please give her our best wishes.

741
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:13,480
Okay.

742
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:24,480
But Ivy Memolite, who was the secretary to the commanders of Attic and T2 and FTD,

743
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:26,480
tell her retirement.

744
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:30,480
And she is a resident in the Springfield.

745
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:36,480
Well, like I said, I tried to do my best in getting in touch with you for your visit here.

746
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:42,480
And I thought I could encourage you to stay a few extra days and I would have put you in touch with a lot of good things.

747
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:46,480
Now we have another guy around here, Bradford.

748
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:50,480
He's an early one in the equipment.

749
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:53,480
Roy James in electronics.

750
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:59,480
There are not many around that are in the roster in 1946.

751
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:02,480
Those are the only ones I can think of offhand.

752
00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:06,480
The rest have either gone or died or whatever, you know.

753
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:11,480
He didn't put in touch with a group that is working on the history of right field.

754
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:15,480
Was this the engineering part, you know?

755
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:16,480
Well, they are.

756
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:17,480
Yeah.

757
00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:18,480
Oh, we didn't know that.

758
00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:31,480
I was supposed to meet him last month and that's just, I've got to call my contact and find the date and place they're meeting this month.

759
00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:35,480
And I will have my first encounter with him.

760
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:37,480
Well, we met with Dr. Narducci.

761
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:39,480
Yeah, he's a historian.

762
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:40,480
Yeah.

763
00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:41,480
And...

764
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:43,480
No, this is an informal luncheon group.

765
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:44,480
Oh.

766
00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:50,480
But it's my understanding there, they've got one member there that might even go back to McCook.

767
00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:51,480
Oh, goodness.

768
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:52,480
He's in his 90s.

769
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:53,480
Wow.

770
00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:56,480
They say his memory is just razor sharp.

771
00:58:56,480 --> 00:58:59,480
He just remembers everything in great detail.

772
00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:01,480
He's in great physical health.

773
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:05,480
And so they invited me to join them.

774
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:21,480
I still have a lot of feelings about the lack of a really great, coherent story on tech intelligence through World War II.

775
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:35,480
The LUSPY team, the O'Mara, Peynamund, JIOS teams, and Seashore, Pot, Goal.

776
00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:39,480
You know, very, very few people at O'Mara, very few people know of these.

777
00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:40,480
Yes.

778
00:59:40,480 --> 00:59:41,480
Well, I was...

779
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:42,480
Their involvement is all...

780
00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:50,480
I was going to ask you, having read some of my rough draft, do I have most everything pretty correct?

781
00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:51,480
Yes, certainly.

782
00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:52,480
Oh, good.

783
00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:53,480
Certainly.

784
00:59:53,480 --> 00:59:55,480
I have no quarrel with anything.

785
00:59:55,480 --> 01:00:02,480
I just don't find a good tie with all these anecdotal things.

786
01:00:02,480 --> 01:00:05,480
I don't mean to put you down now.

787
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:19,480
I'm just saying that I don't see a clear cut tie between S2J2s in Europe at the end of the war and the people coming down from England.

788
01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:22,480
And the people coming from right field.

789
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:23,480
Did they meet?

790
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:25,480
Did they hold hands?

791
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:27,480
Did they... who was subordinate to who?

792
01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:32,480
Well, to be quite honest, I'm trying to find out.

793
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:33,480
Yeah, right.

794
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:41,480
Well, you know, like that O'Mara told me personally, you know, that that file that he brought over was stolen.

795
01:00:41,480 --> 01:00:49,480
It was illegally taken out of hands and brought over.

796
01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:51,480
And that was so much the story.

797
01:00:51,480 --> 01:01:02,480
The whole story of the shipment of material on the board to carrier, you know, was the British actually wanted the carrier intercepted and brought back.

798
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:03,480
Oh, now that's interesting.

799
01:01:03,480 --> 01:01:04,480
Yeah.

800
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:07,480
Figure out in that, see if you can find something more on that.

801
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:14,480
We did get a hold of the so-called official T2 history through June of 47.

802
01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:17,480
And I was interested in the Rainbow Football.

803
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:22,480
I was the football guy for the analysis division.

804
01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:26,480
I had that program and I'm very familiar with it.

805
01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:27,480
I have the final report.

806
01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:32,480
Oh, and incidentally, over the weekend, I found one of the Blue Book reports, too.

807
01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:33,480
Oh, which one is that?

808
01:01:33,480 --> 01:01:34,480
I don't know.

809
01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:35,480
Oh.

810
01:01:35,480 --> 01:01:36,480
I have it.

811
01:01:36,480 --> 01:01:37,480
I found it.

812
01:01:37,480 --> 01:01:40,480
When I find things for a little while, I know where they are.

813
01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:46,480
I wanted to go with the Gregory stuff because I don't want it.

814
01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:48,480
Yeah, I do promise I return things.

815
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:49,480
I really do.

816
01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:53,480
I have to look and see as it duplicated in Gregory's file.

817
01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:54,480
Okay.

818
01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:56,480
But you can count on it.

819
01:01:56,480 --> 01:02:00,480
I do have an original Blue Book report.

820
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:01,480
I don't know.

821
01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:03,480
It's through the box, you know.

822
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:06,480
Oh, this one has some terribly interesting things in it.

823
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:09,480
I was just sat down and read it, you know.

824
01:02:09,480 --> 01:02:12,480
Well, it's 50 years since I...

825
01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:14,480
No, it isn't.

826
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:19,480
It's over 30 years from the date of the report.

827
01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:22,480
So this is the first time I've looked at it again.

828
01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:26,480
And I was amazed at what's in there, you know, all kinds of stuff.

829
01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:29,480
I'd be glad to tell you what it is on another call.

830
01:02:29,480 --> 01:02:30,480
Oh, sure.

831
01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:31,480
Sure.

832
01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:33,480
I was going to ask you if it would be all right.

833
01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:34,480
Hey, Capcurs.

834
01:02:34,480 --> 01:02:37,480
I was going to ask you if it would be all right if I would call you periodically.

835
01:02:37,480 --> 01:02:38,480
Sure.

836
01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:39,480
Yeah.

837
01:02:39,480 --> 01:02:40,480
I mean, catch me.

838
01:02:40,480 --> 01:02:41,480
Whenever I...

839
01:02:41,480 --> 01:02:42,480
I still have an answering machine.

840
01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:45,480
I'd be glad to talk to you, you know.

841
01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:46,480
Well, you know, you got to be careful.

842
01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:51,480
I may show up with a whole bunch of cases of beer and want to go for a boat ride.

843
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:55,480
Oh, well, the boat's 200 miles away, but the beer would be real.

844
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:56,480
Yeah.

845
01:02:56,480 --> 01:02:57,480
I make good beer.

846
01:02:57,480 --> 01:02:58,480
I love to drink beer.

847
01:02:58,480 --> 01:02:59,480
I'm a good...

848
01:02:59,480 --> 01:03:00,480
And I like martinis.

849
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:02,480
I'm an average guy.

850
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:04,480
I like a hamburger, a hot dog.

851
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:11,480
I love a porterhouse steak, and I'm somewhat of a gourmet...got a gourmet appetite.

852
01:03:11,480 --> 01:03:13,480
Well, you never know what Mike and I are going to do.

853
01:03:13,480 --> 01:03:16,480
We might show up with steaks in hand and...

854
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:21,480
I like to go out and eat, and my wife enjoys that sort of thing.

855
01:03:21,480 --> 01:03:26,480
We have a modest home, and we'd be very happy to have you drop in, you know.

856
01:03:26,480 --> 01:03:29,480
And I'm not going to let me to step around.

857
01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:35,480
And I told Mike I'm not in any way inclined to bring big boxes to a meeting in the Air

858
01:03:35,480 --> 01:03:37,480
Force Museum or anywhere else.

859
01:03:37,480 --> 01:03:41,480
I'd be glad to have you over, and we can sit and look at some of this stuff.

860
01:03:41,480 --> 01:03:43,480
Oh, we would love that very, very much.

861
01:03:43,480 --> 01:03:45,480
Some of it, you know, I'd be...

862
01:03:45,480 --> 01:03:50,480
I was when I opened the folder, because I don't dwell on this at all.

863
01:03:50,480 --> 01:03:53,480
I have a very large library of...

864
01:03:53,480 --> 01:03:55,480
I'm a book collector of sorts.

865
01:03:55,480 --> 01:04:03,480
I have books on early intelligence structure in the Army,

866
01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:08,480
names and dates and places, and all kinds of stuff like that.

867
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:10,480
I'll do that.

868
01:04:10,480 --> 01:04:15,480
I know Rosie real well, and I'll tell him that I was supposed to read it.

869
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:20,480
Well, I was sorry to have missed Colonel Rosengarten.

870
01:04:21,480 --> 01:04:24,480
Well, incidentally, with the stuff I'll send you,

871
01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:33,480
I will include a Xerox copy of the article that was just featured in our daily newspaper on Rosie and his wife.

872
01:04:33,480 --> 01:04:35,480
Oh, I would love that.

873
01:04:35,480 --> 01:04:37,480
A real nice article.

874
01:04:37,480 --> 01:04:39,480
Very much admired in the community, you know.

875
01:04:39,480 --> 01:04:41,480
Oh, he's got a wonderful thing with his education.

876
01:04:41,480 --> 01:04:47,480
And a nice picture of the two of them, and a very nice article on his achievement

877
01:04:47,480 --> 01:04:50,480
in the scholarship program.

878
01:04:50,480 --> 01:04:52,480
Oh, that's his pride and joy.

879
01:04:52,480 --> 01:04:54,480
Oh, it sure is.

880
01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:58,480
You have his book, Test Flying at Right Field.

881
01:04:58,480 --> 01:04:59,480
No, I do not.

882
01:04:59,480 --> 01:05:00,480
Oh, my goodness.

883
01:05:00,480 --> 01:05:01,480
No.

884
01:05:01,480 --> 01:05:02,480
Get a copy.

885
01:05:02,480 --> 01:05:03,480
Okay.

886
01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:06,480
Rosie, let me look here.

887
01:05:06,480 --> 01:05:08,480
Yeah, I've got that on my list again.

888
01:05:08,480 --> 01:05:13,480
Rosie Sellersam, see, and all the money goes to the scholarship fund.

889
01:05:13,480 --> 01:05:15,480
He doesn't keep a nickel.

890
01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:16,480
Oh, okay.

891
01:05:16,480 --> 01:05:18,480
I'll feel generous about it.

892
01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:23,480
I'll drop him a line with some bucks in it, and ask for a copy.

893
01:05:23,480 --> 01:05:24,480
Yeah.

894
01:05:24,480 --> 01:05:26,480
I'll put the price in the mailing.

895
01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:28,480
I'll get that off to you tomorrow.

896
01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:29,480
Okay, I'd appreciate it.

897
01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:34,480
And you might just, you know, put a check in there and ask him to send you a copy.

898
01:05:34,480 --> 01:05:38,480
And it's a wonderful book.

899
01:05:38,480 --> 01:05:43,480
It ties in, strangely enough, with Tech Intelligence,

900
01:05:43,480 --> 01:05:47,480
because some of the test pilot stories that are in the book

901
01:05:47,480 --> 01:05:53,480
were testing the foreign airplanes for the T2 game.

902
01:05:53,480 --> 01:05:59,480
So you'll have like the test flight and crash of the ME-262 up at Xenia.

903
01:05:59,480 --> 01:06:07,480
And there's some others in there too, with test pilots like Tom Collins and Jaeger

904
01:06:07,480 --> 01:06:10,480
and Gus Lundquist and so forth.

905
01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:11,480
Great book.

906
01:06:11,480 --> 01:06:16,480
Mike was also, I'm looking through my notes here, that Mike sent me on email.

907
01:06:16,480 --> 01:06:26,480
And that, I guess you guys talked about Gold Meadow and, let's see, football and rainbow.

908
01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:27,480
Not rainbow.

909
01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:28,480
Not rainbow.

910
01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:29,480
No.

911
01:06:29,480 --> 01:06:32,480
Well, I don't, rainbow doesn't ring a bell with me.

912
01:06:32,480 --> 01:06:33,480
Okay.

913
01:06:33,480 --> 01:06:34,480
And Gold Meadow?

914
01:06:34,480 --> 01:06:35,480
Gold Eagle.

915
01:06:35,480 --> 01:06:36,480
Gold Eagle.

916
01:06:36,480 --> 01:06:37,480
Oh, come on.

917
01:06:37,480 --> 01:06:40,480
He's like the bird.

918
01:06:40,480 --> 01:06:44,480
Mike's probably looking at his notes and was probably scribbling like crazy.

919
01:06:44,480 --> 01:06:45,480
Yeah.

920
01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:47,480
What was Gold Eagle?

921
01:06:47,480 --> 01:06:49,480
Not Pinozi or anything, but...

922
01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:51,480
I'd rather not discuss that on the phone.

923
01:06:51,480 --> 01:06:52,480
Okay.

924
01:06:52,480 --> 01:06:53,480
Alrighty.

925
01:06:53,480 --> 01:06:56,480
And, uh, uh, Stork.

926
01:06:56,480 --> 01:06:58,480
Oh, Project Stork.

927
01:06:58,480 --> 01:06:59,480
Yeah.

928
01:06:59,480 --> 01:07:01,480
I have some Stork material.

929
01:07:01,480 --> 01:07:06,480
Let's start, go together, and I'm not comfortable talking about it.

930
01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:07,480
Okay.

931
01:07:07,480 --> 01:07:12,480
Well, incidentally, the guy that monitored Eagle is still in town and in good shape.

932
01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:15,480
His name's John Summoner, not a tucker.

933
01:07:15,480 --> 01:07:22,480
Well, maybe we can talk about it a little bit when I come out in.

934
01:07:22,480 --> 01:07:23,480
Oh, yeah, definitely.

935
01:07:23,480 --> 01:07:24,480
Definitely.

936
01:07:24,480 --> 01:07:27,480
I hope you appreciate my attitude.

937
01:07:27,480 --> 01:07:28,480
I just...

938
01:07:28,480 --> 01:07:29,480
Oh, absolutely, sir.

939
01:07:29,480 --> 01:07:31,480
I don't have any qualms at all.

940
01:07:31,480 --> 01:07:34,480
Talk about things I feel comfortable talking about.

941
01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:40,480
I...certain things...I took an oath and I said I'm never going to talk about them

942
01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:42,480
and I don't have any releases.

943
01:07:42,480 --> 01:07:43,480
I don't talk about them.

944
01:07:43,480 --> 01:07:45,480
I agree with you 100%.

945
01:07:45,480 --> 01:07:48,480
I would think less of you if you did.

946
01:07:48,480 --> 01:07:49,480
Yeah.

947
01:07:49,480 --> 01:07:51,480
If you had the opposite of that...opposite attitude.

948
01:07:51,480 --> 01:07:53,480
Okay, I can use some...

949
01:07:53,480 --> 01:07:54,480
I can use some...

950
01:07:54,480 --> 01:07:56,480
But I won't give you details.

951
01:07:56,480 --> 01:08:00,480
When you want something off the record, it stays off the record.

952
01:08:00,480 --> 01:08:02,480
There's many things about loading and things that we don't...

953
01:08:02,480 --> 01:08:03,480
Yeah, I...I don't...

954
01:08:03,480 --> 01:08:05,480
We just do not talk about.

955
01:08:05,480 --> 01:08:09,480
My wife remembers loading well when he used to come in the armament lab,

956
01:08:09,480 --> 01:08:11,480
presumably on that hydro bomb.

957
01:08:11,480 --> 01:08:12,480
Oh, yes.

958
01:08:12,480 --> 01:08:15,480
Because she was in the...also in the bombing unit.

959
01:08:15,480 --> 01:08:16,480
That no strange thing.

960
01:08:16,480 --> 01:08:18,480
That's where we met.

961
01:08:18,480 --> 01:08:21,480
And she remembered how loading.

962
01:08:21,480 --> 01:08:23,480
Soon as I mentioned the name, she said,

963
01:08:23,480 --> 01:08:25,480
Oh, I remember him.

964
01:08:25,480 --> 01:08:29,480
And her memory is just about the same as mine, you know.

965
01:08:29,480 --> 01:08:34,480
And she has one classic recollection that he always said,

966
01:08:34,480 --> 01:08:37,480
Boy, it's just sledding today, no snow.

967
01:08:37,480 --> 01:08:41,480
And that ought to give you some kind of a clue right away.

968
01:08:41,480 --> 01:08:42,480
Well, I'm going to be...

969
01:08:42,480 --> 01:08:46,480
I'm going to be going up to see his oldest son, Don.

970
01:08:46,480 --> 01:08:49,480
Well, you had to come to me if he knew about Dad's expression.

971
01:08:49,480 --> 01:08:51,480
Oh, I sure will.

972
01:08:51,480 --> 01:08:55,480
As a matter of fact, his dad and him didn't get to spend very much time together.

973
01:08:55,480 --> 01:08:58,480
So everything that I come up with and that,

974
01:08:58,480 --> 01:09:00,480
you know, he's just very grateful.

975
01:09:00,480 --> 01:09:04,480
Well, you can tell him I honestly worked in the same office,

976
01:09:04,480 --> 01:09:10,480
technical assistant to the Chief Analysis Division.

977
01:09:10,480 --> 01:09:14,480
That's where Gull put me on detail.

978
01:09:14,480 --> 01:09:19,480
I was not on the organizational structure there,

979
01:09:19,480 --> 01:09:23,480
but I spent quite a few months sitting right with Al,

980
01:09:23,480 --> 01:09:26,480
so I'm on a daily basis.

981
01:09:26,480 --> 01:09:29,480
And I have no recollection of him.

982
01:09:29,480 --> 01:09:33,480
Later years when he worked in the aircraft

983
01:09:33,480 --> 01:09:38,480
and, you know, his final swan song out of tech intelligence.

984
01:09:38,480 --> 01:09:41,480
I don't remember that at all.

985
01:09:41,480 --> 01:09:46,480
One thing that has always bothered Don and the family is

986
01:09:46,480 --> 01:09:50,480
they have never been able to understand what happened.

987
01:09:50,480 --> 01:09:55,480
His dad became very despondent after he left.

988
01:09:55,480 --> 01:10:02,480
He left T2 and they didn't know under what circumstances and things.

989
01:10:02,480 --> 01:10:04,480
And that's it.

990
01:10:04,480 --> 01:10:09,480
You know, I suppose it's like any family, you know, on death or whatever,

991
01:10:09,480 --> 01:10:14,480
and that the, you know, I think what they're asking for is closure,

992
01:10:14,480 --> 01:10:23,480
you know, to find out what happened and why Alfred became so despondent and that.

993
01:10:23,480 --> 01:10:29,480
I have tried and tried to find an answer for them to help them

994
01:10:29,480 --> 01:10:33,480
so that his sons could come to closure on that.

995
01:10:33,480 --> 01:10:38,480
I could only speculate on it, you know, in my own mind.

996
01:10:38,480 --> 01:10:45,480
I would be pure, surmise, hypothesis, what came about.

997
01:10:45,480 --> 01:10:50,480
I know that, you know, he starts up as assistant,

998
01:10:50,480 --> 01:10:58,480
assistant to the chief of analysis division and his career from there was just spiraling down.

999
01:10:58,480 --> 01:11:05,480
Yeah, it's, it's, his record in that becomes very convoluted and, you know,

1000
01:11:05,480 --> 01:11:10,480
the family has never been able to try, quite come to be able to figure it out.

1001
01:11:10,480 --> 01:11:17,480
Well, I think it might well be said and I, I would, you know,

1002
01:11:17,480 --> 01:11:22,480
I would talk to Don directly if he so desired.

1003
01:11:22,480 --> 01:11:25,480
Oh, you would do that? Could I pass that message on to him then?

1004
01:11:25,480 --> 01:11:32,480
Well, I would, I would open it up by telling him that I was, worked with his father side by side,

1005
01:11:32,480 --> 01:11:42,480
take it from there and if he has an open mind in regards to government, organizational,

1006
01:11:42,480 --> 01:11:47,480
uh, gamesmanship, who you know, when you know and all that sort of thing.

1007
01:11:47,480 --> 01:11:50,480
Well, Don does have a background in government and...

1008
01:11:50,480 --> 01:11:51,480
Does or does not?

1009
01:11:51,480 --> 01:11:52,480
Does.

1010
01:11:52,480 --> 01:12:00,480
Yeah, and he's well into his 60s, he's a very prince of a guy, just wonderful.

1011
01:12:00,480 --> 01:12:01,480
How old a guy is he?

1012
01:12:01,480 --> 01:12:05,480
Uh, I think he's just turned 66, I think.

1013
01:12:05,480 --> 01:12:06,480
Oh my gosh.

1014
01:12:06,480 --> 01:12:07,480
Yeah.

1015
01:12:07,480 --> 01:12:08,480
Wow.

1016
01:12:08,480 --> 01:12:11,480
Yeah, so, you know, I'm really trying to help him out.

1017
01:12:11,480 --> 01:12:12,480
Yeah.

1018
01:12:12,480 --> 01:12:14,480
You know, finding out as much as I can about his...

1019
01:12:14,480 --> 01:12:15,480
Oh, yeah, he was there.

1020
01:12:15,480 --> 01:12:20,480
Oh, yes, uh, it's his oldest son, it's Alfred's oldest son, his name is Don.

1021
01:12:20,480 --> 01:12:26,480
And, uh, Don's brother is just a few years younger, about six years younger I believe.

1022
01:12:26,480 --> 01:12:31,480
And his, his brother was in the, in the army, I believe.

1023
01:12:31,480 --> 01:12:35,480
So, yes, I really appreciate the opportunity to pass on.

1024
01:12:36,480 --> 01:12:41,480
Um, just, you know, just for old times sake, I'd be glad to say that I knew Al.

1025
01:12:41,480 --> 01:12:46,480
I certainly, at the time, thought of him as a friend.

1026
01:12:46,480 --> 01:12:51,480
He certainly was not a mentor or a boss or anything of the sort.

1027
01:12:51,480 --> 01:12:53,480
I just occupied space in his office.

1028
01:12:53,480 --> 01:12:54,480
Yeah.

1029
01:12:54,480 --> 01:12:57,480
Well, that would, that would mean a great deal to Don.

1030
01:12:57,480 --> 01:12:58,480
That really would.

1031
01:12:58,480 --> 01:13:07,480
That part in his job description about his responsibility on aircraft or, you know,

1032
01:13:07,480 --> 01:13:10,480
aircraft production underground facilities.

1033
01:13:10,480 --> 01:13:16,480
Uh, as far as I know, that was a project I had in his office.

1034
01:13:16,480 --> 01:13:19,480
And I don't remember his being involved in it at all.

1035
01:13:19,480 --> 01:13:20,480
Oh, really?

1036
01:13:20,480 --> 01:13:21,480
Yeah.

1037
01:13:21,480 --> 01:13:28,480
You know, whether that's to hurt his son's feelings or, or, I would have to say, that's

1038
01:13:28,480 --> 01:13:30,480
the way I saw it and remembered.

1039
01:13:30,480 --> 01:13:32,480
Yeah, no, I, you would, you would not.

1040
01:13:32,480 --> 01:13:34,480
Paul gave me the assignment.

1041
01:13:34,480 --> 01:13:36,480
I related to the people.

1042
01:13:36,480 --> 01:13:38,480
I can, my wife, even vouch for it.

1043
01:13:38,480 --> 01:13:41,480
I had some of them living with me, staying with me.

1044
01:13:41,480 --> 01:13:43,480
And my home is a guest.

1045
01:13:43,480 --> 01:13:48,480
I set up a team that went overseas, worked with that.

1046
01:13:48,480 --> 01:13:53,480
Oh, Don would not, Don is not that IP.

1047
01:13:53,480 --> 01:14:00,480
But you know that, that, the job description that Mike gave me really surprised me.

1048
01:14:00,480 --> 01:14:01,480
Yeah.

1049
01:14:01,480 --> 01:14:08,480
Well, Don, like I say, Don, you know, just really wants to know, I think he's, he's

1050
01:14:08,480 --> 01:14:11,480
at a point where he really wants to know more about his dad.

1051
01:14:11,480 --> 01:14:12,480
Yeah.

1052
01:14:12,480 --> 01:14:13,480
His dad was always so busy.

1053
01:14:13,480 --> 01:14:16,480
Well, I'm trying to write my dad's biography right now.

1054
01:14:16,480 --> 01:14:17,480
I have a feel for that.

1055
01:14:17,480 --> 01:14:22,480
And, and I've come up with a few things that I thought might really shake Don up.

1056
01:14:22,480 --> 01:14:25,480
And he really appreciated it.

1057
01:14:25,480 --> 01:14:26,480
Oh, that's fine.

1058
01:14:26,480 --> 01:14:29,480
You know, so he can take almost anything you're telling him.

1059
01:14:29,480 --> 01:14:30,480
Oh, okay.

1060
01:14:30,480 --> 01:14:32,480
You know, I don't think you'll have any, any worries.

1061
01:14:32,480 --> 01:14:33,480
Oh, you're talking to me then.

1062
01:14:33,480 --> 01:14:34,480
Yeah.

1063
01:14:34,480 --> 01:14:35,480
Yeah.

1064
01:14:35,480 --> 01:14:37,480
Well, hey, you run out of nickels, I would say.

1065
01:14:37,480 --> 01:14:38,480
Oh, I sure have.

1066
01:14:38,480 --> 01:14:42,480
But, oh, I want to thank you so very, very much.

1067
01:14:42,480 --> 01:14:47,480
I just had a wonderful time and I look forward to calling you again soon.

1068
01:14:47,480 --> 01:14:49,480
Do that sometime when you save up some more money.

1069
01:14:49,480 --> 01:14:50,480
Okay, I sure will.

1070
01:14:50,480 --> 01:14:52,480
I enjoyed it.

1071
01:14:52,480 --> 01:14:53,480
Now I have me a beer.

1072
01:14:53,480 --> 01:14:54,480
Thank you very much.

1073
01:14:54,480 --> 01:14:55,480
Okay.

1074
01:14:55,480 --> 01:14:56,480
God bless.

1075
01:14:56,480 --> 01:14:57,480
I appreciate it.

1076
01:14:57,480 --> 01:14:58,480
Bye-bye.

1077
01:14:58,480 --> 01:14:59,480
Bye.